Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Edgar Martinez - Time to Right the Wrong

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Murphy get ready for HOF inauguration
    It's no secret that I liked Murf, but I don't see him as HOF stock. There is a substantial difference in the number of PA between Murf and Edgar through their age 31 seasons.

    Murphy checked in with 4200 PA compared to EM's 2640, extrapolating EM's doubles - 242, HRs. -98, 14 trips. Murphy's advantage in 2Bs and 3Bs is the product of being a better base runner with a higher SB %, a higher XBT % and a lower OOB (outs on base).

    As far as the PEDs, 1995 was early PEDs era, but there was never any suggestion that he was suspect. An alternative possibility could be as FANG mentioned, the lack of the toll taken by playing a position everyday. 1995 was the division from position player to FT DH. In those final 10 season he averaged 600+ PA with fewer K's than BB and 25 HRs....somewhat less than the 42 HRs. of Bonds in the same station of career

    Comment


    • #17
      As a position player Edgar Martinez was a 3B, do his stats stand up in comparison with the field of HOF 3Bs? 3Bs are the smallest category in the Hall, fewer than catchers and of course DHs. Only 11 players have be inducted and about half are of a different era. Baseball Almanac, link below, lists the players and their offensive stats. I ranked EM against that list;

      BA.....3rd
      OBP..1st
      SLG..2nd
      HR....4th
      RBI...7th
      Runs.6th
      SB....9th

      Not off the page in any category. BRef provides on each players page his HOF ranking by the metric JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score), Martinez's WAR, 68.4 is exactly the avg. of the 3B HOF field. His 7 yr. peak WAR is 0.6 above the avg. and his JAWS is 0.3 above avg.

      Martinez played his entire career in the northwest corner of the MLB appearing in 34 post season games ( 1995-2001) equally split between ALDS and CS...no WS. While not universally outstanding in all of his series' when he hit the Mariners won. when he didn't they lost;

      1995 ALDS; The Yankees take a 2-0 game lead at home, in the 2 losses, EM is 6/10 with 2@ Runs and RBI. Seattle gets game 3 at home, EN 0/1 with 3 BB and 3 Runs. Game 4 3/ with 2 HRs and 7 RBI, with game tied B8, EM drives in the winning runs.
      Game 5; 3/6with 2 RBI. Trailing 4-5 in the B11-drives in Cora and Griffey with the WO ALDS win.

      2000 ALDS; series opens in Chicago. T 10- Martinez hits 2 run HR for the win and the start of a sweep of the White Sox.

      2001 ALDS; Mariners beat the Indians in 5 game series, EM was 1/6 in the 2 losses and 4 /10 in the wins with 2 HR, 5 RBI and 2 runs. In the 3-1 finale Martinez scored the first run and drove in the final run.

      Martinez played his last game 14 years ago at age 41, the numbers told him it was time to walk away, even though those numbers would represent a good season for half the majors.

      FANG, I respect you, always have, but that eyes on crap doesn't apply to you. Of the two players on his team who were 'better' than him, one is in the Hall, the other cheated his whole career and if not for the bias placed on DHs he would already be inducted. That is at the feet of the BBWAA who discounted DHs and didn't have eyes on either.

      http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst3b.shtml

      Comment


      • #18
        Yogi - I take everythign said here with respect. I can respect you and disagree with you all at the same time

        Now to the disagree with you part, haha. Why would I compare him to players who handled a so tough its called the hot corner? And it's not like Martinez was blocked by an All Star (Harold Reynolds, Mike Blowers, Russ Davis, David Bell, Jeff Cirillo and Scott Spiezio). No no no, the issue here is Martinez had a dwar of NEGATIVE 9.

        And I don't agree with you that he'd be inducted already. When I compare him to a contemporary 3Bs, he falls short. Georrge Brett? Chipper Jones? Wade Boggs, Adrian Beltre? These guys all hit better AND played in the field DAILY.

        His only attribute was his bat, and his bat is very good, but IMO, even that was not HOF worthy.

        Comment


        • #19
          FANG, that's all I've got. Will mention that the dWAR is unreliable because of the SSS. 1987 - 94 EM played 3B for a total of 4027 inn. and 18 inn. at 1B....the dWAR was 2.1. 1995-05 he was primarily a DH except for 33 inn. with 1 E-5 and 206 inn. with 1 E-3 and a combined -11.2 dWAR. Doesn't seem kosher to me.


          Comment


          • #20
            Don't think Edgar Martinez is a Hall of Famer? Check out this article and some amazing numbers Edgar has compared to some elite HPF members.

            http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/...ear/ar-BBR8SVy

            Comment


            • #21
              what was the quote from the other page? Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics?

              Interesting article. The Ortiz section was fairly strong. The single line numbers compared to other HOF members I thought was silly because it's cherry picking at it's finest. Yes, he may match Mike Schmidt OPS, but what about the rest of the stats...

              anyhoo - thanks for the good read, pushed the needle a little but didn't change my mind

              Comment


              • #22
                even Ortiz being a HOFer is kind of a joke, as well....if he had remained a first baseman, and stayed in a situation like he had with the Twins, nobody would have ever given a shit about him...but the Red Sox situation created a perfect situation for Ortiz...Ortz: HOFer, or just got lucky to be in a lineup, ballpark, division, where a fat non-athlete that couldn't field at all could make a name for himself? Was he a better player than Ryan Howard? I don't think so, but Howard had to earn his time on the field with defense, and it cost him his longevity

                Comment


                • #23
                  well that and tearing his Achilles running to first Sax, obviously luck has a lot to do with it. Playing your whole career on a shitty team is going to hurt your chances. Fair? No. Oh well.

                  Ortiz to me is a no doubter. A DH job is to help the team score, right? Simplifying someone who plays no defense down to that single item seems fair. You can do it by getting on base or by driving in runs.

                  Ortiz: 3187 R/RBI (1419/1768)
                  Martinez: 2480 (1219/1261)

                  Ortiz, as a DH, would have my vote first round.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Check out this article and some amazing numbers Edgar has compared to some elite HOF members.
                    Is amazing understated? That Edgar Martinez has failed to be elected 9 times, is a testament to bias of the DH position by the BBWAA. Thomas and Molitor both had the offensive statistics and both were elected on the first ballot...with no concern for the defensive damage they compiled prior to becoming DH's....ignore poor defense and then use the lack of defense as a factor is a blatant double standard.

                    Author Ryan Spaeder left no stone unturned...first class analytics and due diligence.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Ortiz: 3187 R/RBI (1419/1768)
                      Martinez: 2480 (1219/1261)


                      Both stats are team derived and not a true measure of a players value and is not a level playing field of comparison with a 1400+ PA difference. Also consider that teams that Ortiz played on had a career .549 winning % compared to the Mariners .515 W %. This is further amplified by Ortiz appearing in 9 postseasons, while Martinez reached the playoffs 4 times.

                      I didn't do this comparison for Ortiz. Martinez hit behind Ken Griffey and A-Rod, likely losing RBI opportunities; A-Rod hit 3rd or 4th for 73% of his PA across his career, Griffey 3th 79% and Edgar Martinez hit 4th 46 % of his career PA.


                      As author Spaeder wrote, this article was not a comparison between Ortiz and Martinez. Even with Harold Baines occupying a spot, there is probably room for both DHs.

                      Ortiz, as a DH, would have my vote first round.

                      I'm sure he'll have a number of 1st round votes...75% is doubtful imo. There is still that failure of the 2003 survey test, which was supposed to be held in confidence but was leaked by the NY Times. Ortiz and 103 of his playmates were outted. Since he never failed a 'this one counts' test, I would expect that he will be elected eventually.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I would think hitting behind Griffy and A-Rod, two guys regularly at a .400 OBP would lead to more opportunity, not less.

                        I guess this is why they have a large pool to vote - cause opinions are like a****s, and in this case, the more a*****s you have on your side, the better your chances

                        Comment


                        • saxon
                          saxon commented
                          Editing a comment
                          and don't forget Jay Buhner...Buhner put up massive power numbers from '95-'97, which is right when Edgar finally found a HR stroke...or at least some of Jay's vitamin B12

                      • #27
                        I'll say this.

                        If Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer, then Martinez is a first ballot guy and Keith Hernandez should be unanimous.

                        Comment


                        • #28
                          Happy Birthday Edgar, the highest WAR of any player born on Jan. 2nd.

                          Comment


                          • #29
                            Martinez isn't the only player being denied his earned position in the HOF and in this case the villain is the BBWAA. The stats, the accolades and awards are undeniable. This is his 7th time on the ballot and his vote % has fallen off it's peak of 52% two years ago.

                            On his resume are 6 ASG, a NLCS MVP, a WS MVP, 4 times in the top 4 in CYA voting including 3 2nds. 5 times led the league in K:BB ratio and is currently historically 5th, 5 times led the league in Fld.%, but was never awarded a GG.

                            In the postseason he won the WS MVP he was 4-0 in 6 GS, he set a MLB record with 56 strikeout in a post season and posted a 1.11 ERA with a whip of 0.64

                            During the expansion era he is one of only four pitchers with 300 Ks in at least 3 seasons, the others; HOF Randy Johnson, Nolan Ryan and Sandy Koufax. During his career he ranked 5th in WAR among his peers; Clemens, Maddux, R Johnson and Pedro.

                            Although his career covered 20 seasons the first four were limited to less than 150 IP due to his youth and elbow and shoulder surgery. Later in his career he had a second shoulder surgery, ankle surgery fractured hand and appendectomy. Over his career he spent 440 days on the DL. Fragile...hardly. Of his 436 GS (3260 IP) he finished 83 (19%) of those starts.

                            The bloody sock is in the HOF, that the player isn't is a disgrace the BBWAA have created.

                            His career WAR is 79.6 which is above the HOF avg. ( 73.4) for the 63 HOF pitchers


                            Last edited by yogi8; 16-Jan-2019, 04:07 PM.

                            Comment


                            • saxon
                              saxon commented
                              Editing a comment
                              I think that the funniest stat for him is 1998, he had 15 complete games...yet...
                              he had a 15-14 record

                          • #30
                            I think that the funniest stat for him is 1998, he had 15 complete games...yet...
                            he had a 15-14 record

                            T
                            hat was one bad team; 9th in runs, 12 in runs allowed and 9th in Fld. %. SP ERA was 4.69 -1.38 whip, RP ERA 4.53 -1.35. The BP had 32 SV and 24 BSv and an inherited runs allowed of 35 %. Schilling must have looked around that locker room and wonder "why me Lord"?

                            By July the Phillies locked up all sharp instruments within Schillings venue.

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X