Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Edgar Martinez - Time to Right the Wrong

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Edgar Martinez - Time to Right the Wrong

    It's been 46 years since the AL instituted the DH. Could blame Bowie Kuhn, but the real initiative was spurred by guys named McLain, McNally, Palmer, Lolich and Catfish. You could also add Seaver, Gibson, Jenkins, Carlton and Blue as ancillary villains.

    In those 46 years no (primary) DH has been elected by the BBWAA to the Hall of Fame, although Edgar Martinez is close...he is also close to being passed over for the 10th and final time. The apparent issue is that Martinez was a position player for only 27% of his 8674 PA, incidentally all in only one uniform over his 18 seasons.

    It isn't evident that Martinez couldn't play the C- IF, in the 6 seasons 1989-94 he was a position player accumulating a 2.5 dWAR, but over the next ten seasons he took the field in only 34 games.

    Martinez's career slash line was .312/.418/.515/.933 with 300+ HRs., 1200 + RBI and RS along with 7 ASG and 5 SS. Over his first 6 years on the ballot his vote fluctuated from the mid 20s to mid 30s, the last 3 years have carried him to 70% last season. Imo, it would be another stain on the HOF if the writers don't elect him in his final AB.

  • #2
    Class act, and a damn fine hitter. Deserves the plaque.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah, I'm all for Edgar getting in. Consistent hitter throughout his long career, anchored many very good Mariners lineups, lots of clutch moments where he came through. He's beloved in Seattle for a reason and he deserves to be in.

      Comment


      • #4
        To me, the bar for a DH has to be higher than that of a position player. Just like the bar for a hitting 1B is higher than a LF, which is higher than a SS.

        To me, Edgar Martinez was a VERY good hitter. He wasn't a generational talent, he wasn't a guy I'd go to the park to see (on a team that did have three of those guys). Comparing his stats to Big Papi, and I can easily see the difference between a HOF hitter and a all star hitter.

        He's not even a hard no for me. Hall of Very Good. Hall of I Want Him on My Team. Not Hall of Fame.

        Comment


        • #5
          1973-2018 and not one DH has been elected to the HOF...none. Were there other generational DH's more worthy than Martinez?

          The HOF has 18 1B either elected by the BBWAA or through the Veterans Committee process.

          In the early 20's, the careers of Foxx, Gehrig and Bill Terry were launched. 5 years later Hank Greenberg made the bigs followed by Johnny Mize 6 years later (Foxx-Terry and Gehrig still playing). 1941 Stan Musial takes his first AB in a career that crossed paths with Cepeda, Killebrew and McCovey. Musial retires and tags in Tony Perez who in his HOF career welcomed Eddie Murray...the most recent 1B reaching the Hall.

          The HOF has room for more than one DH and just as a 2B is not compared to a 1B, the DH should be compared with his peers only...even if he has to share the home town spot light with K Griffey Jr., A-Rod, Randy Johnson and Ichiro

          Comment


          • #6
            one thing that I'll never get with the HOF, is that it's position dependent...for example, Mike Piazza's numbers got him in as a catcher; but the same numbers as a 1B would not have been enough...there are a lot of mediocre middle infielders in the HOF that wouldn't have gotten in, if they played LF or weren't on a World Series team...Phil Rizzuto? How the hell did that clown get in there?

            Comment


            • #7
              That's the part of the HOF that burns my ass...the Veterans Committee. After 15 years on the ballot without ever crossing the 40% threshold, the Veterans Committee stepped in 2 decades later and gave Rizzuto a plaque.

              The Old Timers Committee was valid, addressing the players who never were on a ballot.

              But the Veterans Committed comprised of retired veteran players met in closed session and cut their deals....think a smoky room, much like the political committees that divvy up our tax dollars to fund their patronage pork. "You vote for my buddy and I'll vote for that catcher from your team"!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Brian Stark View Post
                Class act, and a damn fine hitter. Deserves the plaque.
                Do they give Half Plaque?
                Drew's Sig

                Comment


                • #9
                  But about the AL DH. Why don't the NL battle back?

                  How about the NL setup a roster rule that one to three non-starting starting pitchers be place on a reserve roster and have their place on the playing roster be filled by bench players, but no addition pitchers. The one thing this game doesn't need is mo' f'g relievers available for a game.
                  Drew's Sig

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by saxon View Post
                    one thing that I'll never get with the HOF, is that it's position dependent...for example, Mike Piazza's numbers got him in as a catcher; but the same numbers as a 1B would not have been enough...there are a lot of mediocre middle infielders in the HOF that wouldn't have gotten in, if they played LF or weren't on a World Series team...Phil Rizzuto? How the hell did that clown get in there?
                    I get this entirely though (except for the Rizzuto part). Catchers and middle infielders play a more important position defensively. For decades having a 2B or SS who hit in addition to fielding was a bonus as so many had an emphasis on being great fielders first. For catchers in particular you're receiving pitches, framing the plate, blocking the plate, throwing players out (supposedly though don't tell Piazza)...there's a lot going on there. At 1B/LF you're there to hit and fielding is a bonus.

                    Rizzuto is a joke of course though. Fan favorite and nostalgic memory for some people? Sure I guess but he was just lucky to be on championship teams. His announcing of course was just as terrible. He was the biggest homer ever and couldn't call a game to save his life. If the Yankees want to retire his number fine, but him being in the HOF is ridiculous and is just cronyism.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      100% Agree on the veterans committee. I understand them having the power to right past wrongs... but it should be a rarely used power and with good reason. If in the future all the steroid guys are forgiven by culture, that would be a veteran committee prerogative. Disagreeing if someone was "good enough" feels like an old abuse.

                      For the judging people by position, absolutely should be the case. A bar of 500 HR on a DH is reasonable. A bar of 500 HR on a CFer is not. Does that mean no CF ever makes the HOF? Feels pretty simple that a guy who has to have the defensive talent to cover CF should not be compared to a DH, not should a 2B be compared to a 1B. To Saxon's example, a catcher who needs to squat half the game, play only 80% of the games when healthy and in his prime. Compare Pudge to a HOF 1B and he falls well short, but position based he's sure fire.

                      Who are these MIF that you speak of? If anything, I'd say this is the HARDEST place to get into the HOF playing because you're not expected to be a sexy power hitter and so many 2B are butchers in the field. Without looking, my gut tells me there are far fewer MIF than the other position players.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A bar of 500 HR on a DH is reasonable. A bar of 500 HR on a CFer is not
                        In the history of baseball 1903-, there are only 27 players with 500 Hrs. 16 are in the Hall, including 3 CFs. There are also 2 more waiting in the wings for election, which leaves 9 more with the stink of PEDs emanating off them.

                        Setting the bar for a DH at 500 HRs. is pretty tough grading, that fella may not have yet been born.


                        Actually there are 42 MIF in the Hall, including Evers-Tinker and Chance the 1B. Collectively they played 50 seasons with a collective .274 BA and 63 HRs. 26 of the MIFs played on the unlevel segregated fields of the MLB, but # 42 was not denied on his 1st ballot.

                        Many of these MIFs had to be recognized for their defense, which was not always evident in a world and time without ESPN. More recent inductees seem to have been give a bat for Christmas well before their earlier brethren ever did. Apparently worked well for Theodore Roosevelt as well...carrying a big bat.

                        Finally what can you say about Bid McPhee, yes that Bid McPhee. Bid is second in career errors, but also led the league 8 times in Fld.% How's that for an oxymoron?
                        Last edited by yogi8; 04-Dec-2018, 02:13 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yea, when I looked backwards, I eliminated anyone who played before 1970s or so. I do agree that standards change, but if anything they have only gotten harder as pro-ball has become a multi-million dollar paycheck carrying incentives to be bigger/stronger/faster than ever before.

                          If your sole contribution is your bat and scoring/driving runs home, then you better be significantly better than someone expected to tire themselves out for 50 innings of fielding a week. Far fewer chances at minor or major injury when you don't have to run and dive and stretch in the field.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Is Edgar Martinez hall worthy? Let's get 3 professional opinions from guys who may know a little about hitters.

                            Pedro Martinez -
                            "Believe it or not, the guy that I hated facing the most wasn't a guy that really did well against me. It was actually a guy that didn't do that well ... The toughest guy I faced I think -- with all due respect to all the players in the league -- was Edgar Martinez. He had to make me throw at least 13 fastballs above 95 (each time we faced). I was hard-breathing after that. Edgar was a guy that had the ability to foul off pitches, and it pissed me off because I couldn't get the guy out."

                            Randy Johnson - “Edgar Martinez is, hands down, the best hitter that I’ve ever seen. I’m glad I didn’t have to face him too much. Having seen him play from ’89 to all the way when I left, I got to see him a lot against great pitchers. Like I said, hands down, he is the best pure hitter that I got to see on a nightly basis. And I hope that his time comes soon, that he gets a phone all stating that he’s a Hall of Fame player, because he is.”

                            Mariano Rivera - "The toughest – and thank God he retired – (former Mariners DH) Edgar Martinez. Oh my God. I think every pitcher will say that, because this man was tough. Great man, though – respected the game, did what he had to do for his team. That’s what you appreciate about players, when a player come and do what is right for the game of baseball, for his team and teammates."

                            I'll go with those endorsements from 3 of the best pitchers I have ever seen.

                            http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/pr...-of-fame-case/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              you know who these pitchers didn't need to endorse? Ken Griffey Jr. Why? Because you took one look and you knew.

                              You know who these pitchers wouldn't endorse? Arod. why? Cause he's a dick. Still has the HOF talent and will cause massive debate.

                              Endorsements are nice and all, but numbers don't like... and the numbers aren't there (IMO)

                              https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...artied01.shtml

                              3K hits? 500 HR? MVP winner? Best player on his team? 2nd best? batting champ?

                              They guy had a hell of a career, he just never stood out from the bunch. He'll prob get in, but IMO he shouldn't, especially not for a guy who never had to deal with nagging injuries that come with playing the field.

                              Comment


                              • yogi8
                                yogi8 commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Martinez wasn't an OF like Griffey or a SS...A-Rod and you're right about him not being the best on his own team. That is not a criteria for the Hall, his peers were other DH's and in that arena he is heads and shoulders above the masses.

                              • mjjm367
                                mjjm367 commented
                                Editing a comment
                                LMFAO at Arod not getting endorsements "cause he's a dick". Fang, you owe me a spewed cup of coffee.

                                And I agree with yogi 100%, EM was the best of the DHs, who he should be compared against.

                                As for "not the best guy on his own team", so that means that anyone who played with Ken Griffey, or Arod is automatically disqualified from the HOF?

                              • NY FANG
                                NY FANG commented
                                Editing a comment
                                " EM was the best of the DHs, who he should be compared against." And I'd rather have Frank Thomas and David Ortiz. Finding elite DHs is hard because the best DHs are typically fielders for the majority of their careers and then DH at the end. (look no further then Martinez's teammate ARod). But just cause finding them is hard doesn't mean the HOF should induct very good ones (but not elite)

                                And no, teams can have multiple HOFers. That one had 3. My point was that look no further than his team to see what a real HOFer looks like... eye ball test... Martinez isn't it...
                            Working...
                            X